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Thread: More Oil Analysis---Bel Ray Thumper & Klotz MX4

  1. #1
    Modding the Motor ccdhowell's Avatar
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    More Oil Analysis---Bel Ray Thumper & Klotz MX4

    I'm posting up several oil analysis reports for 09RappySE, and will let him comment on the results. I talked to 09RappySE on the phone a couple times and he called Blackstone Labs to talk over the reports. This is some great info.

    First is the Bel Ray Thumper 20w50 virgin sample.


    Second is the Bel Ray Thumper 20w50 used oil analysis from his LTR.


    Now for an oil that looks quite good to me, it's Klotz MX4 10w40, and it's a virgin sample.


    Here's the same Klotz MX4 10w40 after 12 hours in his Raptor 700R.

  2. #2
    Modding the Motor 09RappySE's Avatar
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    First of all I want to thank chris for starting the origional thread and putting us all on the road to a happier motor, his information was an eye opener to me and is a great guy to talk to.

    First the Bell ray oil, after talking with chris and blackstone labs this oil which I thought to be a good oil, is good for nothing except weed killer or use in your lawnmower.The wear additives (Mag,phos,zinc) are low and the viscosity was within range but low as well, the sample from my LTR shows some flags and concerns first the silica limit is alarmingly high caused from dirt getting past the airfilter, which in turn has caused high wear metals present as the oil is more like liquid sandpaper. Sodium is also high which is an indication of either grease left over from manufacture assembly (engine has low hours) or coolant entering lubrication system. Fuel dilution is also high which dropped viscosity to around the 20w area also increasing wear, this is either from my sampling technique of letting the engine idle to bring oil up to temp or a rich condition or other fuel system problem, only further sampling to create a trend will determine.


    The klotz oil looks very good, wear additives are high and viscosity is good, this oil is a keeper. The raptor also has high silica do to poor air filtration,causing some high wear metals present, the sodium level is also high, this is where it was helpfull to have sent a sample of virgin oil in as without that sample the high sodium reading would have pointed to a coolant leak, but the virgin sample contains sodium as a detergent so no issue there, all in all the raptor looks ok the high wear limits could also be due to both engines being new and neither have had alot of oil changes.

    Bottom line is this is great info for me, needless to say I will be getting rid of my K&N airfilters and draining the bell ray oil on friday and switching to klotz in both bikes and will continue sampling to protect my investment.
    734 09 Raptor
    Meglodon by Bo,KW springs, Web 4 Cam, 54mm TB, 105.5mm CP cylinder, 12:1 CP,Barkers Inframe,Dynatek Coil,PC V,Dynatek Programable ignition,CCP stabilizer,+5 swinger,Boss Noss Sys, Direct Drive Lock-up, KDS Evac valve,HID Light conversion,SPAL fan
    Tuned by EHS Racing 73hp 51Tq

    07 LT-R450
    Athena 500cc Kit
    Porting by Bo
    DMC Pro Comp 4
    PCIII
    Trinity intake
    ATP intake Cam
    Boss Noss
    Tuned by EHS 50hp 34Tq

    85 ATC 310r

  3. #3
    Master Modder downfour's Avatar
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    great info!

  4. #4
    Modding the Motor ccdhowell's Avatar
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    I am particularly disappointed in the Bel Ray Thumper oil. I have seen Bel Ray oil analysis before and didn't think they were this bad. The way Bel Ray advertises this oil is tantamount to false advertising, this oil is junk IMO. First, the zinc and phosphorus numbers are way too low for our quad engines, no protection there. The viscosity is supposed to be a 20w50, but the SUS number at 212 degrees suggests this oil starts life at a 40wt at best. And when you look at the UOA, after only 12 hours of use it has already sheared to a 20 weight oil...simply unacceptable.

    I like the look of the Klotz MX4. It has lots of the good stuff, but take a look at the virgin sample, the lead reading is really weird. Virgin oil shouldn't have any lead in it, probably not a bad thing in the engine, but now you know why you should get a virgin sample of any oil you are serious about using because it will help you interpret the UOA numbers. The Klotz does start toward the thin side of a 40wt, but that's ok, and would have done better on the UOA if it hadn't been for the high fuel dilution.

    Now for the silicon. Take a look at the silicon numbers for both UOAs...they are extremely high. Compare them to my numbers from the Oil Extreme thread. That's the difference in running a K&N and running a foam filter. Anybody wanna run a K&N now? How do you feel about liquid sandpaper inside your engine? And Jeff tells me he mostly runs his Raptor in the sand, so much for sand being too big to pass through the K&N.

    My comments on a UOA like both of these are: use the Bel Ray Thumper in lawnmowers only(they will run forever on just about any oil you feed them), and change the air filters.

    Several guys told me they had ordered analysis kits. When you get the results pdf, if you don't know how to post it, shoot me a pm and I'll help out.

  5. #5
    Modding the Motor StrkrMn's Avatar
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    Very Interesting...!!!

  6. #6
    Master Modder Ryans' Roostin' Raptors's Avatar
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    I'm not surprised by the K&N filtration ... or lack there of. It all boils down to, the more air-flow per surface area equals more dirt.
    Greg's ATV

    www.gregsatv.com

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    2 Raptor 700's
    '06 700 w/PC3, HMF, Greg's ATV suspension, 21/20" RazrII's, DWT Ultimate's, Houser MGC +.5" a-arms, Houser stem/clamp/flag, Pro Taper Contours, Rox risers, DrD reverse, custom pegs
    '07 SEII, still modding


  7. #7
    Modding the Motor 08rap's Avatar
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    ya ,i think i'll stick with my oiled foam air filter
    08 700
    pro flow intake and filter
    barkers
    pc 5
    pro armour skids

    08 250 raptor (josh's)
    prm skids
    tusk nerfs

    2001 90 polaris sportsman(nick's)



    "Just at the point where any other machine would've sent the(hey, let off the gas stupid, your gonna kill usboth signal to my brain), the raptor sent pin it sissy ,we can make it"

  8. #8
    Modding the Motor r00st's Avatar
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    Great information guys! I was recommended Klotz oil by a very knowledgable engine builder for my old DS730. I ran it in that and continue to run it in my 700. Glad to know it is good on paper and not just by word of mouth :)

  9. #9
    Modding the Motor 09RappySE's Avatar
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    Yea mike, the klotz is good stuff.
    734 09 Raptor
    Meglodon by Bo,KW springs, Web 4 Cam, 54mm TB, 105.5mm CP cylinder, 12:1 CP,Barkers Inframe,Dynatek Coil,PC V,Dynatek Programable ignition,CCP stabilizer,+5 swinger,Boss Noss Sys, Direct Drive Lock-up, KDS Evac valve,HID Light conversion,SPAL fan
    Tuned by EHS Racing 73hp 51Tq

    07 LT-R450
    Athena 500cc Kit
    Porting by Bo
    DMC Pro Comp 4
    PCIII
    Trinity intake
    ATP intake Cam
    Boss Noss
    Tuned by EHS 50hp 34Tq

    85 ATC 310r

  10. #10
    Bolt-on Beginner Sandstorm's Avatar
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    Here is something I found

    All About Motor Oil

    or for those that just want to read about wet clutch motorcycle engines at the bottom of the atricle. It does talk about diesel oils in the article and it's very good so just click the upper link.

    Choosing an Oil for Your Motorcycle
    There are a few special problem areas for motorcycle oil. Most motorcycles have wet clutches, which means the motor oil runs through the clutch. If the motor oil has too much molybdenum in it, there are fears that the clutch can start slipping. No one I know has ever actually had this happen to them, but the warnings are all over your owners' manual and the oil companies' web pages. On the back of all certified oil cans is a circular stamp with the certification. Avoid oils that say "energy conserving" in the bottom half of the donut. These oils contain friction modifier additives that could cause clutch slipping over time. Essentially all 0w-20, 5w-30 and 10w-30 oils are energy conserving, and should not be used in your motorcycle.

    Most motorcycles run the engine oil through the transmission, and the transmission gears are very hard on the oil's VII package. This means that over a couple thousand miles, the oil's viscosity can break down. Standard car oils are only good for typically 1500 miles before they've lost about half of their viscosity. Remember, 10w-40 oils contain a lot of VIIs which tend to shear in your transmission, so I believe 10w-40 oils should be avoided. You can't use 10w-30 because of the friction modifiers. This doesn't leave much. Commercial 15w-40 oils are a good choice, because they have relatively few VIIs which are the more expensive shear-stable sort. Synthetics typically don't contain much of a VII package, so shear is not as big an issue with them.

    Some people use their motorcycles only sporadically. This means the oil can all drain completely into the sump, leaving no protective film on the bearings. The first start after a long period of non-use can be particularly hard on an engine. Film strength is very important if you're a sporadic rider.

    There are several key advantages to using Synthetic Oils:

    Synthetic oils have a higher viscosity index than mineral base oils. Synthetics have better resistance to thinning at high temperatures and thickening at low temperatures. Since synthetics have little or no VIIs, synthetics last longer in service without radical changes in viscosity.

    Synthetics have a much higher film strength than petroleum oils, so it takes a lot longer for the oil to drain completely off your bearings and into your sump.

    Diester synthetics are polar molecules with solvent properties which dissolve residues and combustion byproducts.

    Choosing a Break-In Oil for Your Motorcycle
    The theory that synthetic oils should not be used during break in is the same as the theory that your engine will break in better if you use synthetic oil but add a dinner candle to your four quarts of engine oil. Frankly, I find this theory, um, questionable. Oh, hell, laughable. Corvettes and Porsches come from the factory with Mobil-1 in their engines. Remember, these engineers have designed world-champion engines for F1, Indy, Le Mans 24 hours, etc.

    There's a lot of mythology surrounding break-in oil. It's simply not the case that synthetic oils are more "slippery" than conventional oils. Also, break-in of a modern engine is completely different than break-in of an engine made before about 1980. Modern engines, by comparison to something made in the '60s, are pretty much already broken in from the factory due to the fact that today we hold much tighter machining tolerances. The exception, of course, would be the Ural, a motorcycle made on a production line unmodified since about 1935.

    I recommend you change your break-in oil at 75 to 100 miles, 100 to 150 kilometers. Your engine does shed a fair amount of metal particles in the first 20-50 miles, and I really can't understand why you would want this stuff floating around your bearings for the first 600 miles, 1000 kilometers.

    I put Shell Rotella "synthetic" (87% group III) oil in my DL650 at 75 miles. It burns no oil, gets great gas mileage, and runs great. I recommend you switch to a good synthetic at your first oil change.

    Recommendations
    I get a lot of email, "My buddy has 283,000 miles on his Yamazuki 867 Nintruder, and he's never used anything but 35 per quart grocery store oil changed every 48,000 miles." Here's the truth: modern Japanese engines are amazingly well engineered and can tolerate a surprising amount of abuse. However, putting automotive oils in your motorcycle and running them for more than 1500 miles is abuse. I abuse my motorcycle enough with the way I ride them without adding on the abuse of using cheap oil that will break down in 1500 miles.

    The question of which oil is best is not settled. We know what we want: the oil is inexpensive, lasts a long time, and makes our engine never break. There are various articles in MCN which do a chemical analysis and make recommendations based on the content of the additive package. I am very skeptical of this, as the utility of these chemicals at various levels is never tested, and the base oils are not tested. There are a couple articles that actually test for viscosity breakdown, and standard petroleum oils don't do very well. Consumer Reports once did a 4,500,000 mile test of oils in NYC taxicabs, however these engines only start once per day and are water-cooled, so they mostly avoid cold start-ups and overheating. If you're using a standard automotive petroleum oil in your motorcycle and running it for more than 1,500 miles, you are taking your chances. By 1,500 miles, the VII additives are pretty much all broken down, and the oil has therefore thinned out enormously.

    Your engine will not explode if you use Spiffo-Magic Superlube for 4,000 miles. Your engine will not explode if you never use synthetic oils. However, any of these choices puts additional strain on your engine. You buy $65 tires for your car that last 45,000 miles, and $100 tires for your bike that last 8,000 miles. Why on earth would you try to save $5 on each oil change to buy an oil that can't hold up in a motorcycle engine? My DL650 runs its oil through the transmission, I run off-road (extreme environment due to silicon blow-by at the piston rings), I'm pretty much always revving my engine at 5500 rpm or more (red line on the Corvette, the one that comes with Mobil-1 as factory fill). I stress my little engine enough without making it use dinner candles as lubricants. Nor do I wish to make the bearings run in 10w-40 oil that's broken down to 10w-15 oil.

    Some people should, in my opinion, clearly use a synthetic oil. You should be using a synthetic if:

    you routinely start your engine in temperatures under 40f, 5c.
    you live somewhere where it gets below -35 degrees, and you want to start your car. In this case you must use either Mobil-1 0w-30 or the Canadian 0w-40 Rotella. If you're riding your bike in -40 degrees, I want a picture just before you die.
    you leave your vehicle sit unused for months at a time.
    you are unable or unwilling to change your oil within 2000 miles.
    you have one of these new 4-stroke MX bikes. These MX bikes hold only about one quart of oil, all of them have marginal cooling systems, and if there's a more severe use of an engine than MX, I don't want to be physically present when it happens.
    If it's below -55c, -65f, stay home. Really.

    Three synthetics stand out from the rest: Mobil Delvac 1, Mobil-1 SUV and Shell Rotella T Synthetic. These are C certified industrial oils meant to be purchased in 55 gallon drums and used by companies which run a lot of diesel engines. The Commercial oils, as discussed above, have more expensive additive packages which are meant to prolong engine life and oil life, as opposed to being cheap to buy at Pep Boys and helping the car companies meet their CAFE requirements. These oils meet all the automobile requirements through SJ, and also have extra additives to help pick up gunk in the engine, to keep the oil from becoming acidic, and to maintain the oil's viscosity over a long time. In fact, the manufacturers talk about their oil's viscosity resistance to shear forces - exactly what a motorcycle needs. Shell Rotella-T Synthetic is available at Wal-Mart for $13 / gallon, so I consider this the motor oil of choice. Delvac-1 is very hard to get in the west - there are only two places in all of California where you can buy it. Mobil-1 SUV is readily available everywhere for about $4.50 / quart. When used with the correct filters, these oils are certified for 50,000 mile oil change intervals, and are frequently used for 100,000 to 150,000 miles in diesel long-haul trucks. Now, before you get all excited about the possibilities, you must also keep in mind that the diesel engines don't run their oil through their transmission, and the large diesels all have two oil filters, one a normal paper filter, and the other a 1 or 2 micron filter that catches pretty much everything. We don't have these secondary ultra-fine oil filters on our bikes. Also, the large diesel engines hold eleven gallons of oil - a oil and filter change costs these guys $350 if they use synthetics, $150 if they don't.

    The synthetic diesel oils are 5w-40 oils. Some people have expressed concern to me that this doesn't match the 10w-40 specification for their engine. The 5w rating only applies when the oil is cold, below about 80 f. Once your oil and engine are up to operating temperature, these are 40 weight oils, just like all the others. In cold conditions, under 40 f, the 5w oils are much better for your engine than a 10w oil.

    AMSOil, Motul 5100, Mobil-1 MX4T, Mobil-1, Redline, and Golden Spectro are apparently made with high quality additive packages, similar to the commercial synthetics. Personally, I would find it reassuring if these oils were CI-4 certified. However, many motorcyclists have used these oils for years with good results. They are all fine oils, and perfectly acceptable to run in your motorcycle. They are a bit on the pricey side. Delvac-1, AMSOil, Redline and Motul synthetics contain no petroleum oils - they're pure synthetic. To the best of my knowledge, all other synthetic oils contain some amount of Group III oil.

    Mobil-1 automotive oils all contain small amounts of moly - about 100 to 200 ppm. This can cause clutch slippage in some motorcycles. I've only heard of this being a problem in Honda Shadows.

    I'm sometimes asked if it's ok to blend your own oils. Yes, it is. Oils are all made out of pretty much the same chemicals, and nothing really bad will happen. If I wanted to blend my own oil, I expect I would use something like 25% Motul 5100 10W-40 and 75% Chevron Delo 15w-40, which would get me both the advantages of a lot of diester stock (5100 is pure diester) and the diesel additive package. In the winter, however, I would use 25% Motul and 75% Rotella synthetic, to get the superior low temperature performance. In fact, I just run Rotella synthetic in everything I own, year round: ST1300, DL650, Superhawk, Chevy Silverado, motorhome.

    I'm also sometimes asked if it's ok to run non-Harley oils in Harley-Davidsons. In my opinion, yes. If you change your engine oil every 3,000 miles or so, you can run pretty much any decent oil. I ran Valvoline in my Harleys for 120,000 miles. For extended oil life or superior protection, I recommend AMSOil, Golden Spectro, Motul 5100 or Mobil-1. Harley recommends a 20w-50 oil, so Rotella or other synthetic diesel oils will not do. However, the 15w-40 diesel oils meet the same film strength standard as 20w-50 oil, and are just fine to run in your Harley. I'm told that the standard Harley oils are made by Sunoco, and the Syn-3 is made by Castrol. The Syn-3 Harley synthetic is primarily a Group III oil, and contains very little PAO or Diester stock. I don't consider the Syn-3 Harley oil either a particularly excellent oil, nor a competitively priced oil.

    If you live in another country, you'll have to do a bit of research to decide on an oil. Generally, any oil certified for use in a late model Volkswagon or Mercedes turbo diesel is a good choice. Another good idea is to go to a truck stop and ask the truckers about brands. Rotella is marketed all over the world, but in other countries it's called Rotella or Rimola or Helix Ultra, and the formulation may be a bit different, depending on local climate and preferences. It will likely also be a lot more expensive than it is here. Sorry. I don't make your tax policy. Nor ours. They would all be very different if I did.

    If you prefer a less expensive petroleum oil, Chevron Delo 400, Mobil Delvac 1300, and Shell Rotella T are available at any auto parts store for under $7 per gallon, or at Sam's Club or Costco for under $6 per gallon. This price is reasonably competitive with passenger car oils, and you are getting a Group II oil with the superior commercial additive packages. Notice in the table above that these oils have particularly good high shear film strength, meaning the protection you get for your bearings is much better than with a 10w-30 or 10w-40 oil. I don't have any information about how long you can run these oils before their viscosity breaks down, but I'm confident it's at least as long as the best consumer petroleum oil. If you're really into saving money, you can often find these oils locally in 10 gallon drums for about $50. This should keep your bike, your car, and your wife's car in good shape for at least a year. Farmers, ranchers and truckers buy these oils in large quantities, and we get to ride piggy- back on their economies of scale.




    A comparison of a few oils. These numbers refer to the blended oils after VIIs are added. Rotella Rotella Syntec GTX Syntec Mobil-1 Valvoline Valvoline
    Synthetic Synthetic Blend Synthetic Synthetic
    Rating 5w-40 15w-40 10w-40 10w-40 10w-40 15w-50 10w-40 10w-40
    pump Vs 39k ? 60k 60k! 60k! ? ? 30k*
    Vs @ -30 6400 ? 7000 7000 7000 ? 3150* 6500
    Vs @ 40 89 108 89 100 111 125 125 97
    Vs @ 100 15 15.5 13 14 16 18 14 14
    VI 176 141 148 150 152 153 155 148
    Flash 246 213 232 213 213 230 230 216
    Pour -40 -24 -33 -30 -30 -45 -40 -33
    Ash 1.3% 1.5% ? ? ? 1.3% ? .8%
    Neutral 10 11.5 ? ? ? ? ? ?

    * = @-20c
    ! = @-25c



    If you want to do some research on oils yourself, here are some links. I read all this stuff and I'm still alive, but a bit weird. All about the new CJ-4 oils. Oil viscosity defined. API Service classifications. Everything you ever wanted to know about oil, but were afraid to ask. Here's what an additive package manufacturer has to say about oils. Chevron talks about base oils and GF-4 oils. Consumer Reports tests oils for 4,500,000 miles in NYC taxis. Lubricants primer by Red Line. All about oil by Ed Hackett, a college professor. Oil Advice from Mike Guillory, a petroleum engineer. More Oil Advice. Jeff Di Carlo also has an opinion. Check out the articles in MCN Jan-Feb '03. MCN '94 includes viscosity breakdown testing. Another article that includes viscosity breakdown testing. The history of synthetic oils, only *slightly* self-serving. Oil additives = snake oil? (yes) More on oil additives = snake oil

    Mobil wants your money, as does Shell, Valvoline, AMSOil and Spectro Oil. You may be skeptical about the oil companies interests, but they are the people making what we buy so it's interesting to hear who they think we are and what they think we need.

    Are Harley oils the best?
    Last edited by Sandstorm; 02-03-2011 at 03:36 PM.
    06 Limited
    12.1 CP Web 4 cam
    DT Performance Flow Bench Porting
    +2mm TB +1mm valves
    DMC Duals, K&N
    Dyna Ign.
    Flex Bars, AC Nerfs
    G Force +4 axle
    I Shock +2 arms
    Works Black Widow triple rates H/L adj
    21" 8 paddle Gliders, 22" Mohawks
    21" 8 paddle Hauler/Glider combo, 21" smoothies

    If you aren't sore after a day of riding you ride to slow.

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